[dsdl-comment] Re: Entities for XML

David

As Convenor of WG1 it is my responsibilty to protect our ISO standards. It
is also my responsibility to inform my committee members of any proposals
for standardization that may conflict with committee standards. That is why
I posted your message to the SC34WG1 mailing list, which unlike W3C
committees is, in the spirit of ISO, a public site.

As to my reaction to your plagarism, I apologise for going over the top at
the end of a bad day when plagarism was rife in my life. BUT as someone who
has earnt his living from publishing I still see red when I see the whole
contents of a standard (or any other publication) regurgitated without a
word of acknowledgement, and without any request having been made to its
publisher to use the information. The copyright notice, deliberately, only
applied to the formal entity definitions, not the contents of the standards
they are derived from. Other uses of the information in ISO 9573-13 require
permission from ISO.

At present ISO rules make it virtually impossible to get SC34 work approved.
Until this is resolve I cannot recommend that WG1 undertake any further
work. I retire in December. You might have better luck with Murata Makoto,
my successor, if you come back to him next year, but now is not the time to
create a New Work Item in SC34 as the odds are that it would be rejected for
lack of interest.

Nobody argues with your statements about who these days promotes the use of
entity names (other than myself and I am about to give up the effort of
arguing for their retention). But W3C has a well known track record of
failing to acknowledge its debt to those who sweated for many years to bring
the standards they rely on to a disbelieving world. When a former editor
from SC34 makes the same error I have reached the end of my these days
extremely limited patience. Even if your unprotected site was only intended
for my sight, and that of your colleagues, it is still a slight on the likes
of Anders Berglund to cite non-ISO standards such as Unicode and yet say
nothing about the ISO in iso.... I trust that this oversight will be
corrected before long, and that you will seek ISO's permission for the
promotion of their standards as a significant part of a W3C standard.

Martin

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Carlisle" <davidc@nag.co.uk>
To: <martin@is-thought.co.uk>
Cc: <dsdl-comment@dsdl.org>; <member-math@w3.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2007 10:10 PM
Subject: Re: [dsdl-comment] Re: Entities for XML

>
> Reply-To: "Martin Bryan" <martin@is-thought.co.uk>
> From: "Martin Bryan" <martin@is-thought.co.uk>
> Cc: "David Carlisle" <davidc@nag.co.uk>
> Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 21:30:35 -0000
> Organization: IS-Thought
>
> Exactly John. Simply acknowledging source as a copyright statement in a
> referenced file that is linked to the printable document is not
> sufficient
> to absolve someone from blame for copyright infringement. David must
> acknowledge the earlier work over many years by ISO members such as
> Anders
> Berglund if he is to publish this as a W3C Recommendation
>
> Martin
>
> Martin, I think your reaction is frankly bizarre, the references
> section is at best a skeleton and actually I specifically dropped
> references from this draft, which I repeat is only being seen by a wider
> audience because _you_ posted its URL to an apparemtly public list,
> because the form of the reference takes on a very different natuure
> depending on whether this document is intended to be an update to ISO
> 9573-13. If it's an ISO document with an ISO copyright and all the
> entity files have ISO copyriles on them, that is one thing, if on the
> other hand it's a purely W4C document then the form of refernce to the
> previous version of iso 9573-13 needs to take on a rather different
> form. I mailed you asking if you were still interested in co-editing and
> if you thought that the ISO activity on entities could be restarted.
> The draft hasn't been publically announced or lined to from any public
> page because it is not ready for public yet. to talk of copyright
> infringement is nonsense. It's on a public rather than W3C server
> but primarily that is so you (personally) could see it while in draft
> form. To talk of copyright infringement and theft is just nonsense.
>
> As far as work goes, these mappings have as a matter of necessity been
> maintained by the Math WG for almost 10 years, mapping the existing
> names (and they are just names in the existig ISO spec) through multiple
> incarnations of stix unicode submission then changes in unicode 3.1 3.2
> 4 5 and the current pipeline, _all_ of which involved code points that
> affect these character mappings. Clearly the origin of the names needs
> to be cited, but it is also clear where and by whom most of the work has
> been done. To try to portray this as the W3C jumping up and stealing
> some existing body of work is just nonsense.
>
>
>
> I see from
> http://lists.dsdl.org/dsdl-comment/2007-11/0005.html
> that this list is being archived publicly, but my replies are not
> appearing, so I'd appreciate it if you'd post all the messages that I
> have replied to you to the list, so people see both sides of the
> conversation. Given that you've made thie existence of this document
> public I will probably have to announce it sooner rather than later.
> which is a bit of a pain, as it isn't really ready to go out yet.
> But so be it.
>
>
> David
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
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